The Future of Online Courses: Are They Still Effective? with Jasmine Jonte

Courtney Elmer - 00:00
Our online course becoming obsolete. If you aren't an online business, then you know how much the digital atmosphere has changed lately, especially with the dawning of all of these new AI tools. And in today's episode, we're talking about the future of online course and, specifically, whether or not there's still an effective way to get results for your clients. We're going to explore answers to questions like, why do most course fail to deliver results? Should you be using AI tools to generate online course content? Is it possible to make online course that are binge-worthy, like Netflix? Or are we really just trying to put lipstick on a pig here? All of this and more is coming up next, so stay tuned.

Courtney Elmer - 00:42
Globally ranked among the top shows in business and education, we're known for helping overworked digital business owners navigate the ups and downs on the way to seven figures.
Each week you're going to learn how to get the right systems, structure, and support in place so you can build a self-sustaining digital business that thrives in a rapidly changing digital business environment and grow through what you go through to create greater income, influence, and impact you deserve. This is AntiFragile Entrepreneurship. Welcome back; you're listening to AntiFragile Entrepreneurship™. This is episode 179, and I am sitting here today with my good friend Jasmine Jonti, a former teacher, Pitbullmama, and online course creator extraordinaire. And when I say extraordinaire, I mean it, because Jasmine and her team helped us rebuild our signature podcast launch program last year, pod launch.

Courtney Elmer - 01:39
And saved us from hiring three new team members and over 250 hours of work in the process.
But the reality is, most online courses today fail, utterly fail, to generate the results they promise, both for the client taking the online course and for the coach offering the course. But not because the content is bad, and not because the coach is lacking in any way. But because of the very structure of the course itself. And chances are, if you're a coach or an online expert, then you've created a online course at some point in your journey or you've thought about creating one. But what happens is, after spending all that time to outline the content and film the videos and upload it to your members portal and create the graphics and link the resources and on and on and on. A, you're exhausted. And then B, the course doesn't perform like you hoped. Either people don't buy it or they buy it and then they don't finish it or they finish it and they don't get the results that they hoped for so they don't refer anyone to you.

Courtney Elmer - 02:47

To fix this problem, most people try to tweak the layout of the course or change the name or tweak the content or update the graphics and branding, but none of that helps.
Because the truth is, online course can be incredibly effective tools to scale a business.
Even in this day and age, when you know how to do it right. There are people out there right this minute making hundreds of thousands of dollars a month from their online course. And if it's possible for them, then it's possible for you, too, right? But the question is, what is it that they know that you don't? How do you make an online course effective so that it delivers the results that you and your client both want? Let's find out.

Courtney Elmer - 03:45
Jasmine, welcome!
I am so excited you're here today because you have been so instrumental in helping us do a better job with delivery for our clients. Our clients are getting such a better experience because of what you and your team have been able to help us accomplish. So I can't wait to tap into your mind today and unpack why it's so important that we pay attention. To how our online course are created so that people can actually get the result that we're promising. So thanks for making the time to be here.

Jasmine Jonte-04:15
Thank you for having me. I mean, it was a delight to work on your content.
Your team is a delight. You're a delight. So yeah, super happy to be here and connect with your peeps.

Courtney Elmer - 04:27
Yeah, well, you know, what's so interesting is three years ago when I created the online course that, you helped us upgrade our podcasting program. I literally did it, probably like most people do their online course, right? They have people join them on Zoom, they record like 90-minute meetings, they put those meetings in a portal, and they call it a online course. And that was what we had done. And I look back, and I laugh a little bit because it's like, you know, we don't have to be perfect to get started. And I was very much with the mindset, like, let me just get it up, get it out there, people can benefit from this, and people did. But at a certain point, I realized if I really wanted to turn this program, That's something that is known in the industry.

Courtney Elmer - 05:08
That's not just something that looks like it was thrown together, and we're calling it a course, you know, and really create an experience for people and help them actually get through the program, you know, and short-form contents all the rage, right now, like, sitting through 90-minute sessions. No, thank you. So that's when I came to you because I was like, please help me do this. I have all the knowledge in my head, but I feel like I'm too close to it to step back and see How can I improve this? How can I make it better, aside from chopping up those really long videos into like really short ones? So I would love to kick this off by having you walk us through. Like what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see coaches, course creators, and digital business making when they try to create an online course of their own? What do they do wrong?

Jasmine Jonte - 05:54

Yeah, you mentioned one of the biggest ones, which is really long content, right?
Like it's the idea that I can put up an hour video, and it's valuable when people don't even listen to hour-long podcasts most of the time. So if we think about that, how does that translate to our online programming? What we want is ideally seven to ten minutes. Sometimes it can be shorter, and sometimes it can be longer, especially depending on your audience, but you typically want something that is shorter, seven to ten minutes. You also want something that's really actionable.

Jasmine Jonte - 06:27
So at the end of every lesson, What action do they need to take?
At the end of that seven to ten minutes, what are you telling them to go do? Most people think that just like information is power, but it's potential power, right? Knowledge is potential power, and when you tell them what to do with it, you're automatically putting the power in their hands to actually transform and change their life, which is why they're in the program in the first place. So those are a couple of things, and to piggyback on the idea of making it actionable, how easy can you make it for them to take action? What are the things that you could provide so that it's so, so simple? When we did your program, I came in hot with the whole launch blueprint idea. I was like, Courtney, I want everything, every action they need to take for their launch in one document. Like one place that they can go to, see everything they need, check off the boxes, and that's what we did. So it's just, you know, how can you simplify, how can you make it actionable, how can you make it really easy for them to take that action?

Courtney Elmer - 07:32
Yes, make it consumable; make it actionable. I think these were two of the biggest changes that we made to the pod launch and to our offer because the action steps were there before, but they were kind of buried. Like you said, let's make it so obvious, and pulling those out was something I never thought to do, because, In my mind, and looking at it from a coach perspective, I felt like, well, that's obvious. You have to learn this, and then you take this step and do that.

Courtney Elmer - 08:00
But from the client's perspective, when you're consuming that information, sometimes it is difficult to know exactly what to do if it's not spelled out right there, like literally with a checkbox beside it or a mark on the cleat beside it. So I think that was a huge change right there, and it was a huge eye-opener for me. And just to piggyback on that a little bit and kind of lead into what I want to ask you next, how often do we as coaches teach from our perspective versus our client's perspective? Does that impact our delivery in any way? Does that impact our ability for our clients to actually consume and retain the information that they're learning?

Jasmine Jonte - 08:44
I mean, think about it, you're swimming in your own, you know, you're like a goldfish, swimming in your own water, and the water is all you see, you know? So when you think about how you learn, you probably assume everybody else learns the same way, which isn't necessarily true.
Some people really like to learn by watching. Some people learn by listening, especially if you've got a podcasting community. Those people are going to want to listen to your content.
Some people just want to read. I'm kind of that person. I've taken a lot of programs where I look like a terrible student because I have a 0% course completion rate because I haven't watched any of the videos. If the resources are good, I will just take the resources and run.

Jasmine Jonte - 09:23
That's all I need. So I think you've got to know what your own learning style is, and how you consume, but you have to be aware of how everyone else consumes too. I'll be honest, I was really resistant to podcasts for a long time just because I don't really like to listen to stuff.
I don't even listen to music. I use my headphones, my noise-canceling headphones on silent just because it cancels noise, right? I love quiet and I think it's from all the years of teaching and being around noisy students. Because of that, I'm sure I have a predisposition to think like, why would I include a private podcast feed? Because I don't like to listen. Right? But what happens is then you're doing your students at a service. And at the end of the day, you're doing your business at a service because happy students mean higher referrals, more retention, and more repurchases. So meeting everybody is good for them, but in the long game, it's good for you too.

Courtney Elmer - 10:20
This is such a good point because I'm the same way I love to read, hand me a well-built PDF, and I am on my way. Listening to podcast was something I did early on in scale a business. This is going to sound really funny because I live in the podcast world. I teach podcasting, but now at this point in my journey, I'm not listening to as many podcasts to learn. And the same with the videos.
I've got the little Chrome extension on my browser that I can watch any video at like 2x speed, even if there's not a speed controller on it. So I just like cruise through those videos, grab the resource, read through it, highlight what I need or underline, you know, make big star next to something, and go. And I never thought about this from a content or online course creation perspective, which sounds crazy because you would think, you know, if you're teaching, you've got to take into consideration the different learning styles that people have or even just, you know, the different ways that people prefer to consume information and it was something that never even crossed one.

Courtney Elmer - 11:16
So yeah, that's your valid point. I'm curious to know, too, in your experience, why it is that most of the online course out there fail to produce results for the client. That's taking the course. And then, therefore, impact the revenue that the online course creator is hoping for.

Jasmine Jonte - 11:32
I think most experts if you're a true expert, you have a doctorate level in whatever it is that you do. You've put in your 10,000 hours, but you're trying to teach a kindergartener, So you're not sure what's important anymore, you're not sure what order to teach things in, you're not sure what are the needle-moving activities because you have so much data to work from. Especially if you've been working with people one-on-one or in some kind of group, like just group coaching, not necessarily programming. So that's a huge, huge struggle. I always think about it like you have a hundred files in your brain. You think of your brain as a file folder. And of those hundred files, You're probably going to need to put 10 to 15 of them into the course, and you need to put them in the right order and sequence. And it's like figuring out which files to put in and then what order to put them in. So, so challenging for experts. And so you have to, the best way I think, is like look at, think at the end of, start with the end in mind.

Jasmine Jonte - 12:34
So if you think about your online course at large, okay, what's that big promise? What's that transformation? Okay, now, if you were to take that transformation and you were to break it down into five to six to seven high-level steps, what would they be? And then if you take those, each of those steps, those are your modules, and you break them down into five to seven smaller steps, what would they be?
And then, if you go into one of those micro steps, which is a lesson, what's that action at the end? And then you build the lesson in reverse of that. So it's kind of like you have to, it's like an accordion, you know, you got to pull it all the way out to then put it back together.

Courtney Elmer - 13:08
This makes so much sense that it makes me laugh because I would go back in my mind to my very first course. Which was me, in Canva, throwing some slides together, dumping literally everything in my brain onto these slides, recording these videos, recording these like hour-long lessons, and it was this course that it was just, I don't know, if anyone ever made it through that course, like God bless them Because I don't know that anyone ever did, it was so much information. And so the sequencing is really important and again, it's just another thing that as a coach, as a consultant, my brain is on helping the person achieve the transformation.
It's not necessarily on How we're going to do that or what does that look like in a series of steps? But it's so relevant when it comes to putting it into course format, even if you have a coaching aspect of your course, right? You're coaching alongside it.

Courtney Elmer  - 13:59
Those models are there for people to refer to. They've got to be able to go find it easily.
They've got to know right where to go, at what sequence or at what point is this in the overall process. So it makes so much sense. I'm curious to know, like, if you were to pit two courses, like a really highly effective online course,

Jasmine Jonte- 14:40

An effective course continues to sell and market to students to continue to take the course.
We often think they bought it; they're going to want to do it. That's not true.
Just because they bought it, there's like all of this, I can't remember the psychological term, but it's like you feel like you've made progress if you just hit the buy button when you haven't even logged in or done anything, right? So, like using, we use neuro-linguistic programming, right?
We use hypnotic languaging personally in all of the courses that we build, but if you don't have that training, that's okay. Just put your copywriter hat on. When you write the module titles, put your copywriter hat on when you start a lesson, right? Hook them at the beginning, just like you would hook them at the beginning of a podcast episode, a social media post, an email, or whatever. So, like, continue to sell and market to them.

Jasmine Jonte - 15:26
Why is this lesson the most important thing they're going to hear all day? And what's the cost of not taking action as a result of this lesson, right? So, effective courses have that.
Effective courses also usually have some kind of support element to it, but I like to think of it as Goldilocks support. You want just the right amount; you don't want too much, you don't want too little. So for some programs, that's like just having a Facebook community or a community available to message and chat, etc. Like your community is great, right? Like the pod launch community, they show up for each other in there. So, that's an option. Having coaching calls, etc., that's another option. Sometimes it can be too much, though. People are like, I've looked at courses before where they have a group call available every day of the week for a different topic inside of the program. And for some programs, it's great, and people love it, And for other programs, it's way overkill. So, Goldilocks support is also really, really helpful.

Jasmine Jonte - 16:35
Another thing that effective courses have, you don't have to have this, it's nice to have, but gamification is really nice to have. Gamification is essentially using the principles of game design theory. If you think about video games, it's usually the easiest way to think of it. Where there are levels, and you level up, and you unlock things, and there are surprises and excitement, and like that surprise and delight factor really puts your course over the top over what other people in your area are doing because most people just don't care enough to do it. So when you do, it really starts to create this raving fan culture. So those are three things. I'm sure there's more, 

Courtney Elmer - 17:19

But those are three amazing things. And it's things, again, that are just kind of outside of our awareness. We don't often think about it, right? But when we experience it as an end-user, it does make all the difference. I think the gamification piece was something A, I never would have thought up on my own. And B has been so much fun to implement with our community and that really sets this particular podcast launch course far and away from other podcast courses that are out there that don't have that element. It makes me think of an app that I just downloaded on scrolling Instagram early one morning. I see an ad for an app that's supposed to help you write shorter, better copy.

Courtney Elmer - 18:13
And turns out that it actually is this series of mind exercises that you can do in 10 minutes a day to improve your communication skills, to improve your math, math that you can do in your head, which I've never been very good at, to improve the brevity of what you're saying when you're saying it and all of these really cool things.
And the entire app, right? You're learning how to do this, and you're enhancing these mind processes along the way, but the entire app is built on gamification. And every exercise you complete, you earn points, and it's like high scores and all this, and it's like it is so much fun to play, and I've never been one to play a game. This is literally the first game I've ever downloaded on if you want to call it a game onto my phone and play. But it is so much fun and I'm under the impression that I'm doing a good thing for my mind.

Courtney Elmer - 18:58
It's making me complete this stuff every day. I want to get that little fire symbol on there that says, Ooh, you're on a four-day streak, right? And it's fun, so I think everything you said about what makes an effective course effective is so on point. And especially this last one because that's how our brains are now learning to process information. Just with the digital age and the direction everything is going with technology, which really brings me to another point.
I've been seeing a lot of these AI course outline generators and copy things, and we're seeing so much AI right now. How effective is that in actually helping you create an effective course?

Courtney Elmer - 19:35
Is that something that, you know, you kajabi, I use kajabi, right?
And I can go in there now, and I can click a button and say, this is my topic, create a course for me. And it will. But what's your take on that? Is that really going to set you apart in the space?

Jasmin Jonte - 19:49
We think of AI as our creative partner. So for us, it's great to vlog in a chat GPT when you're like looking at a blank page. But honestly, we're never really looking at a blank page because we talk to experts, but You know, like there are times, right? Especially content creation for social stuff like that. So we look at it as a creative partner. Now I've used that kajabi AI outline generator.
I used it for projects that we're working on. And I go in there, and I'm like, you know, I think we did one on investing. So it was like an investing 101 kind of program.
So I typed in Investing 101. And it came back with an outline that was boring as hell. But, you know, it could have worked. A little bit. But our expert was a woman. It wasn't her. It wasn't her flair. It wasn't how she went about things.

Jasmin Jonte - 20:42
It wouldn't have matched her brand. It wouldn't have made her stand out.
It would have been like, oh, I don't know. Like you know how if you go on Udemy sometimes or some of those Coursera stuff and you look at the outline and it's like, oh man this sounds like a college syllabus? That's really what it's generating things like, at least right now, it can change.
So, while the online course outline generators can be a good place to start, it's definitely not the end all be all. Same thing with, you know, you can type in, I want to write a lesson on Bitcoin and what is Bitcoin is the name of my lesson.

Jasmin Jonte  - 21:16
And it will pop out slides, and it will pop out, you know, content, but it's not 100% what you want it to be. The one type of AI that we are finding really, really beneficial right now is voice AI, because, like we could take all of your solo podcasts Courtney, we could plug it into a voice AI, and it will come out with Courtney's voice. And then I can take that voice, and I can write scripts for your program, and I can dub it with slides, and you don't ever have to record anything.
There are also some really cool avatars right now, so some of our corporate clients they're really having fun with that because they don't need to be the face of the brand anymore.
So I'm really more excited about those than I am about the content stuff just because, like, people are paying for you. They're not paying for your content, but they're paying for you if you're the face.

Courtney Elmer - 22:09
Yes. So what I'm hearing is use it as a tool. Take it with a grain of salt. Don't rely on it solely, and make sure that you're embedding yourself and infusing yourself into every aspect of your course because, exactly what you said, there are people who are buying you. So how much time does it take for your team to build the online course, collectively as a whole?

Jasmine Jote - 22:31
So a 4-5 hour signature program, 25-30 lessons, 90 days, 3-4 months, we've gone faster than that before, we've gone slower than that before, but typically 3-4 months.

Courtney Elmer - 22:49
So 3-4 months, and how many hours collectively would you say that y'all put into that?

Jasmine Jote - 22:54
Usually 200 to 250. 

Courtney Elmer - 22:58

Think about that for a second. If you're listening to this right now and you either have a course that you've built that isn't performing like you want to, or you're not sure that it's effective, right? Maybe you've just built it, or a couple of people have gone through it, but you really have no idea or people are getting the results. Think about how long it took you to put that together.
You know, take into consideration you just throw it up there like I did or just record a few long modules and just stick it out there. Call it a course, or if you're looking to build an online course, 250 hours. If you had someone's help, someone who knew exactly how to help you build a course that was consumable, that was actionable, that was enjoyable, that was fun, that actually got your clients through the course and got them the result that they want.

Courtney Elmer  - 23:42
What would you spend that other 250 hours doing? That was the big selling point for me, Jasmine. Honestly, when we were chatting, and I'm like, I need help, you know, and you're like, okay, well, yeah, you could do this, and I'm like, shh, no way! Please, here, hand it to you, right?
Like, and have your team do it, and y'all did such a beautiful job at coming up with things I could have never even possibly considered. So with someone right now who's maybe at the point in their business where, you know, if they're not ready to hand it off yet or they're not at that level, you know, where they're like, okay, I can totally pass this on because if you're at that level, reach out to Jasmine. But if you're not there yet, what can someone listen and do to improve their course?

Courtney Elmer - 24:19
If they were to walk away from this episode with some simple tweaks that they could apply right now to an existing online course, just to make it easier to get through so people actually complete it, what would you tell them to do?

Jasmine Jonte -24:31
Yeah, I'm going to come back to this idea of keep selling and marketing to them.
Like, keep doing that because that's what will keep them going. Also, this actionable idea.
Even if it's not in the right order and sequence, even if it's your lessons are 20 minutes if you just tell them what the heck exactly they're supposed to do and give them some kind of deliverable with which to do it, you're far and away. And that's always my goal what are the short and simple things I can give them without having to necessarily re-record the whole thing?
And it always comes down to that. It's like just making it easy for them to take and get them excited by telling them why it's so important.

Courtney Elmer - 25:21
I know you have a resource, too, about how to make your online course binge-worthy, right?
Like if you were to drop a Netflix season and it was like, oh my gosh, this is season two of whatever it is that you love to watch, right? You can't wait for it to come out. Like, how can we make our online course like that? Where can people go to get that resource?

Jasmine Jonte - 25:34
You can go to jasminejontae.com/netflix and it's, yes, 10 ways to make your course as binge-worthy as Netflix. You find my website jasminejontae.com. You can also hit me up on Instagram is my main platform, and LinkedIn. I do a little LinkedIn, but Instagram is probably better.

Courtney Elmer - 26:02
Thank you for being here today. You just dropped so much knowledge. I think what you shared is so actionable, but it's simple. You can walk away from this episode and apply it without feeling overwhelmed. It's some simple tweaks, but that ultimately is going to help you increase your retention, increase your deliverability, and increase the number of people who are buzzing about your program because they're getting results, which will result in new leads and new clients for you. Thanks for your time today.

Jasmine Jonte - 26:27
And thank you for having us, you know, having me. I'm a huge fan of pod launch. I mean, I don't know if we've shared this online yet anywhere, but like we took pod launch, we launched a podcast late last year. We hit the US chart top 200. We hit three other international charts just from following your system. So hey, it works if you'll work it.

Courtney Elmer - 26:51
I love it. Thank you for sharing that and thank you for being the person who has helped us bring thought-wash to the world. We really couldn't have done it without you, and I'm so grateful to you for that.

Jasmine Jonte - 27:01
Thank you, thank you.

Courtney Elmer -27:03
And thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of AntiFragile Entrepreneurship™.
Now if you want to connect with Jasmine, make sure you head to the show notes right now so you don't forget so that you can get the link she shared here on air and grab the resource that she is giving you or book a call if you're ready to just hop on and hash this through with her to see how she can help you save over 200 hours. If this episode was helpful for you, tap the share button, and share it with a friend; surely you know someone else in the entrepreneurial space who could benefit from this episode.

Courtney Elmer - 27:42
And if you're a long-time listener, but you haven't left a review yet, I'm talking to you right now.
I want you to scroll down in your Apple app today. Tap the five stars and write a review, just a sentence or two. We'll help someone else know that this is a show worth listening to.
And as always, if you want to connect with me personally, I hang out on Instagram @thecourtneyelmer, come follow me there, send me a DM, and say hi. I'd love to get to know you better. And next week, I'm going to do something that I've never done before here on the show.
And I am going to reveal to you The exact proven process that we have used to help over 60 clients learn how to launch and leverage a profitable Apple Top 100 podcast as a lead generation tool for their digital business.

Courtney Elmer - 28:37
Because the reason that I do the work that I do today is to help you use your voice to catalyze positive change in the world. Because chances are, if you're listening to my voice right now, you might have toyed with the idea of launching a podcast of your own. But you're not sure if it's right for you. You're not sure if it's the right time for you. You're not sure if you have the time to keep up with the podcast. You've got so much on your plate already. But I'd also be willing to bet, and chances are you are burnt out from having to post three to four days a week and constantly come up with content ideas that barely even drive sales because your content gets buried in the newsfeed within 24 hours.

Courtney Elmer  - 29:21
And you feel like you have a wealth of info to share, but you struggle to come up with content that can make a difference in 15 seconds or a 250-word Instagram caption. And it feels like your content needs to be shorter and shorter and shorter in order for people to listen. When the reality is, I'd be willing to bet that right now, you're relying too heavily on short-form content to grow your audience, which can't possibly generate the results you want because there is no way to have a 15-second piece of content add real value, create connection, build trust, and
Generate sales. It's just not possible. And you're likely trying to build your presence on two or more platforms in an effort to gain awareness for your brand. But these individual efforts aren't working together yet as one larger cohesive marketing strategy.

Courtney Elmer - 30:15
If this sounds like you, then make sure you join me back here next week because I'm going to show you how installing a podcast as a marketing system within your digital business will help you solve all of these problems Increase client enrollments into your programs and position you as a respected thought Leader in your vision. So join me back here next week, and until then, let's go out and grow through what we go through together.