Overcoming High-Functioning Anxiety as an Entrepreneur with Hayden Finch

00:00:00 - Courtney Elmer
Have you ever wondered why sometimes the smallest of things can trigger a complete and total emotional meltdown? And I'm not talking about being the parent of a five-year-old. Maybe you got an email with unexpected critical feedback from a client or felt overwhelmed by a sudden influx of incoming requests. Or maybe it was a tech glitch that took you 3 hours on live chat support to figure out or a team member's missed deadline for a time-sensitive project. In most cases, we're able to handle these day-to-day stressors just fine until one day, when they reach a tipping point, and the proverbial straw breaks the camel's back. Usually, we chalk it up as burnout, but could there be more under the surface? We're exploring the root cause of burnout today and what you, as an entrepreneur, need to be aware of. This is an eye-opening episode that could completely transform your entrepreneurial journey. So stay tuned. 

00:01:07 - Courtney Elmer                                                                                                          Globally ranked among the top shows in business and education. We're known for helping overworked online business owners navigate the ups and downs on the way to seven figures each week. You're going to learn how to get the right systems, structure, and support in place so you can build a self-sustaining business that thrives in a rapidly changing digital environment and grow through what you go through to create the greater income, influence, and impact you deserve. This is  AntiFragile Entrepreneurship™. This past weekend I was watching Encanto with my son, who's five, and this is a new movie for our family. I know that it came out a while ago, and we did not jump on the bandwagon right away. 

00:01:49 - Courtney Elmer                                                                                                            In fact, I didn't really buy into the hype at first, but recently he picked up this movie and started watching it. I didn't really pay that much attention at first, but I sat down with him, and I watched it with him, and there was a song that caught my attention immediately. It grabbed me. And if you're familiar with the movie, it's a song where the older sister Luisa, who has a magical gift of strength, is talking about the pressure she feels to keep up with these appearances. So if you're not familiar with the movie, let me paint a brief picture for you. So the movie highlights the journey and the story of this family who has these magical gifts. And for this one sister, her gift is strength. She's always been this strong one. In the movie, you see her moving heavy boulders out of the way carrying donkeys down the road and moving pianos across the room. And in this moment, she's confiding in her sister that she's worried because she's starting to lose her strength. And this has never happened before. 

00:02:57 - Courtney Elmer                                                                                                          We know at this point in the movie that there is the possibility that the family is fracturing and things are falling apart, and it's affecting the magical gifts that the various family members have. So she's confiding in her sister, and she's singing this song. And I swear to you, this song is the anthem of every firstborn child. And so she's singing, and she's saying how I'm the strong one. I'm not nervous. I never ask how hard the work is, but under the surface, I'm pretty sure I'm worthless. If I can't be of service, who am I? If I can't carry it all, who am I if I don't have what it takes? And then she goes on to sing and imagine for a moment if she could just shake the crushing weight of expectation. Could that free up room for joy, for simple pleasure? But instead, the pressure keeps growing. She goes on to describe how on the outside, she maintains this appearance, this facade of no cracks, no breaks, no mistakes, and no pressure. If you've never heard this song, I highly recommend listening to it. I'm going to link it in the show notes for you because it is worth the listen. So not only is this a really great song that is very relevant and relatable for so many of us, but it's also describing the hallmark signs of high-functioning anxiety.

00:04:45 - Courtney Elmer                                                                                                        Now, chances are you've heard the term high-functioning anxiety thrown around before, and in a moment, I'm going to help you determine if it's something that's adversely impacting your business and your quality of life. But I want to be clear. High-functioning anxiety is silently praised in our culture. But unlike other forms of anxiety or anxiety disorders that are usually looked down upon, high-functioning anxiety is a form of anxiety where individuals experience these inward feelings of worry or fear while maintaining a high level of performance in their daily lives. From the outside looking in, you'd never know that they were dealing with that. In fact, they seem to have it all together. Everything always appears like they've got it under control. They appear successful; they appear accomplished. But internally, they are battling with ongoing anxiety that's emotionally and mentally draining. This is especially important for entrepreneurs like you and me because high-functioning anxiety can be particularly dangerous for many reasons. 

00:05:57 - Courtney Elmer                                                                                                          Impostor Syndrome research shows that entrepreneurs with high-functioning anxiety often struggle with feelings of inadequacy and self-doubt. Despite their achievements, they fear being exposed as a fraud, or they worry that they don't deserve their success. High-functioning anxiety can also make it hard to make decisions. It can lead to overthinking. It can hinder progress and growth. Because you and I both know the moment that you get into that overthinking loop, it slows things down and keeps you from being able to make clear and confident decisions. It can also lead to workaholism. Look, my husband and I went to dinner the other night, and my parents had our son. They were watching him for the evening, and it was the first night out that we had had in a while. And on our way to the restaurant, I turned, and I looked at Alan, and I said, you know what? I think we would both be workaholics if we were not parents. And he turned, and he looked at me, and he said, 100% because we love what we do. We both love our work. We had just come off of a day of meetings. I think he had like a seven-hour meeting that day. I had like six or seven back-to-back meetings that day. And we were amped up. We were also tired. It was a long day, but it was a good tired. It was a happy, tired. 

00:07:20 - Courtney Elmer                                                                                                          We were excited about the progress that we had made that day. But here's the kicker. Entrepreneurs who have high-functioning anxiety may actually use their work as a coping mechanism. They're constantly pushing themselves to grow more, to achieve more. And the successive workload leads to burnout. It can negatively impact both your physical and your mental health. Another hallmark of high-functioning anxiety. Are you ready for this one? Fear of failure. And what happens when this fear gets in the driver's seat? It causes you to avoid taking risks or taking advantage of new opportunities. It can limit innovation, and it can also hinder your potential for growth. These are just a few examples I can go on because high-functioning anxiety also makes it really difficult to delegate. Have you ever hired someone and found it hard to completely hand over a task to them and then got really frustrated because they should be taking on more responsibility or they should be doing it right, but it winds up back on your plate, and here you are doing the thing that you hired them to do. Yeah, I've been there. Chances are you have to. High-functioning anxiety not only leads to an overwhelming workload but can also prevent effective team collaboration. And then, on an even deeper level, it can lead to a lack of work-life balance and make it feel impossible to even achieve or to even know what work-life balance would look like for you, which can come with chronic stress that can have really negative impacts on your health, leading to issues like insomnia, digestive problems, migraines and more. 

00:09:15 - Courtney Elmer                                                                                                           So if you are listening to this right now and you felt called out when I shared one or more of these examples, it's possible that you could be someone who struggles with high-functioning anxiety. The good news is that when you're aware of it, you can actually use it to your advantage. But if left untended, it could worsen and devolve into other serious anxiety disorders. How do I know? Because it happened to me when I was a teenager, I was a living, breathing example of high-functioning anxiety. And in my sophomore year in college, I finally reached my breaking point. And that's when I was diagnosed with anorexia, OCD, and depression. It took me years to recover from that, but it didn't get there overnight. And as I look back, I can see all of the signs and characteristics of high-functioning anxiety at work in my life prior to that. So if you're someone who suffers from this, chances are you relate to Luisa's song that I shared a moment ago, and you most definitely see yourself in one or more of the symptoms I just listed. If not, this episode isn't for you. And that's okay. 

00:10:50 - Courtney Elmer                                                                                                         You can go on about your life. But it is absolutely crucial for entrepreneurs to understand, recognize, and address these challenges and seek support so that they can heal their high-functioning anxiety effectively. So seeking professional help, as we all know, can be hugely beneficial, particularly when running a business. You'd be surprised that I talk to people who tell me they pay for ongoing therapy because it's less expensive than hiring a high-ticket business coach. And it's just as effective for getting to the root beliefs that often drive our behavior and prevent us from getting results in our business in the first place. So therapy and counseling can certainly be beneficial in learning how to navigate anxiety while maintaining a successful entrepreneurial journey. And this is the exact reason that I asked Dr. Hayden Finch, a licensed clinical psychologist, behavior change expert, and author, to join me here on the show today. Dr. Finch is the CEO and the founder of the Finch Center for High-Functioning Anxiety. She's on a mission to equip people with the skills they need to master anxiety, discover self-acceptance, and find meaning in a busy life. And she's here with me today to dispel the myths around high-functioning anxiety and even help you learn how to use it to your advantage in growing your business.

00:12:38 - Courtney Elmer
Hayden, welcome to the show. I cannot wait to tap into your wisdom today. I know that what we're going to cover here is going to be valuable for our listeners, especially as it relates to mental health and entrepreneurship. So thank you for taking the time to be here.

00:12:54 - Hayden Finch
Yeah, I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, but I've never really had time to say my thoughts out loud and think through this. I'm excited to think through it with you about this kind of overlap between what we do.

00:13:10 - Courtney Elmer
Yes. And I couldn't be happier to have you explore that here on the show because, as you know, and as our listeners know, this podcast is different. Yes, we exist in the business space. Yes, we're in the marketing category, but we don't talk about business and marketing on the show. Like a lot of other podcasts talk about it. Most podcasts are focused on success and strategy and the highlight reel. Right. And they bring all these experts in to talk about their amazing success and how you can have the same success. 

00:13:37 - Courtney Elmer                                                                                                         And I think that's great. We all want success, but how are we showing up, and how are we navigating the inevitable failures in our business? And that's really what this show exists to explore. So in your work as a psychologist, I know that you specialize in helping people with high-functioning anxiety. And I feel like this is one of those buzz terms that we throw out there. Oh, I have high-functioning anxiety, right? We kind of joke about and laugh about it, but it's a real thing. So I would love just to kick us off. Can you explain the difference between high-functioning anxiety, how that might differ from other forms of anxiety, and why it's really important for us as entrepreneurs in the context of building a business that we are aware of and know how to address this specific type of anxiety?

00:14:27 - Hayden Finch
Yeah, that's something I've been thinking a lot about, and actually, my thoughts have been evolving about it in the last few months. And I think the way I'm thinking about high-functioning anxiety now is some people with anxiety; you can see it on their faces, right? They're just kind of like vibrating, and you can see that they're anxious. You just look at them, and you know but often, a person with high-functioning anxiety, you don't see it. Right. You are not going to know that they're anxious. They're a person. 

00:14:57 - Hayden Finch                                                                                                           They don't want people to see them sweat, and you're not really going to know it. And sometimes they don't even really know it themselves. And we can call this type of coping or even just approach the world as over-controlled, right? They're super in control of themselves, their emotions, and their lives to the point that it can get a little out of hand. That's probably the skill set that has made them successful in life, and it can get a little bit extreme such that then it starts to create anxiety. But because they're sort of over-controlled in the way that they approach the world, you're not going to see it. Right, but it's going to be kind of on the inside, and it's kind of hard to detect, but they'll have a sense like the person on the inside will have a sense that something is kind of off, but often no one in their life can really detect it.

00:15:45 - Courtney Elmer
How does that show up? Like, give us some examples. What does that typically look like for someone who does have high-functioning anxiety as they go about their day?

00:15:52 - Hayden Finch
Yeah, it can show up as, on one side, it's sort of like compulsive productivity, right? Like, that's this never-ending to-do list, and I'm getting stuff done all the time, I'm working all the time. It's really hard for me to take a break. I'm always doing something, and I'm getting it all done. And that might actually inspire other people. People might look at me and be like, how does she do that? How does she get it all done? Or it can be sort of like this sort of paralysis and procrastination. Like, I have so much that I want to do that I can't even get started. And again, my to-do list is endless. And where do I even start with this? So it can kind of look kind of like either extreme wow.

00:16:31 - Courtney Elmer
And so can someone with high-functioning anxiety with that anxiety, can that devolve into other types of anxiety, more like mental health issues, or I was diagnosed in my late teens and early 20s with an anxiety disorder, specifically an eating disorder. That really was how that manifested. But as you're describing this high-functioning anxiety, I'm like, gosh, I had that in high school, I had that in college. That was me. Just this need to control everything to know that I was safe. I think that was my brain's way of knowing that I was safe if my environment was within my control, which of course, we can't control everything. Right? So those habits didn't serve me well as I started my business, but for me, that's where it started, but then eventually became something worse that I then had to stop and actually work through. So is that typically the pattern that we see, and can we stop it before it gets to that point? If it is?

00:17:28 - Hayden Finch
Yeah, you're right in recognizing that this is sort of a continuum where at sort of one end of it, it's just like really good healthy productivity. I can set goals, I can work towards them. I'm really motivated. At the other end is a sort of mental illness where we start seeing obsessive-compulsive disorder or obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, which similar name but a different kind of presentation or eating disorder. It can get to the point that control and perfectionism are so extreme that they really do interfere with your brain, your body, and your ability to function in your life. So there is that continuum.

00:18:05 - Courtney Elmer
Yeah. This is why this field is so fascinating to me. Mental health, entrepreneurship, really, where these two things intersect. There's something that I've always said in my work as a coach, and when I'm consulting with clients, I'm like, look, you are the human behind your business. Like, your business is nothing without you, and it wouldn't be what it is today without you, and it's not going to be what it is five years, ten years from now without you. But your business cannot grow beyond you if it's too dependent on you or if you are not in a place stable enough mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually where you can support the growth of your business. So it's almost like looking at your business as this extension of you. 

00:18:49 - Courtney Elmer                                                                                                          This is especially true for personal brands, but even true for corporations because there are people, there are humans behind the scenes that are actually responsible for the growth of the business. So I've always been fascinated with how our own psyche and our own mental health really impact and play a role in our ability to grow. Because for a lot of people listening, they're working to scale to six figures, they're working to scale to seven figures, and we encounter a lot of obstacles along the way. So in your experience in working with entrepreneurs, have you noticed if there are any unique challenges that they might face when it comes to managing their mental well-being? Like, are there common patterns or tendencies that entrepreneurs tend to have that maybe other people don't? Or are there things that we just need to be more aware of as it relates to really taking good care of ourselves mentally? Not just physically, not just taking good care of our businesses, but taking care of our mental health so that our businesses can grow and thrive, right?

00:19:49 - Hayden Finch
Yeah. I have three thoughts. One is on that word control that you mentioned a few minutes ago, and another is on asking for help. And then a third is sort of using our values to kind of strike some balance in our life. So in terms of control, what I see often with entrepreneurs is they have a vision for their business. Obviously, that's the role of the entrepreneur is to have this vision, but it's really hard for them not to be in that position of controlling everything in the business. And to take something and to take that idea and put it in someone else's hands is a really vulnerable thing for someone with high-functioning anxiety, right? Like, what if they don't do it as well as I do? Or what if their vision is not mine? Or what if there's some sort of problem and I'm not aware of it? And so this sort of need to be in control is one thing that can hold people back. And that's where the asking for help comes in too. Because on the one hand, we need to be able to ask for help, right? 

00:20:48 - Hayden Finch                                                                                                              As an entrepreneur, you may not be an expert in everything that your business needs so it just makes good business sense to be able to outsource some things and ask for help. That's a really vulnerable thing for a person with high-functioning anxiety. We don't like to believe that we have limitations or we might need help or something like that. So that's a difficult thing. And so they sort of intersect, right? Like, I have to admit that I might need some help with some things, and that's going to require that I let go of a little bit of control in my business. And those are really scary things that we have to sort of get the anxiety to step aside for a second so we can get out of our own way and make those good choices for the business.

00:21:27 - Courtney Elmer
Yeah, I want to talk a little bit more about that because this is something that I definitely struggled with for so many years in my business, thinking that I had to be the one to know it all, do it all, execute it all. And not that it wasn't okay to ask for help, but that I didn't want to because I thought I should be the one to do it; I should be capable, right? And it was almost like asking for help. To me, I made it mean that I wasn't capable, and so I didn't want to not be capable, so I wouldn't ask for help. So do you see belief patterns like that with people that you work with, especially in the business space where let's say, someone just struggles to ask for help, and it's like they know they need the help? They wouldn't hate having the help.

00:22:07 - Hayden Finch
Right?

00:22:07 - Courtney Elmer
We all enjoy having help. It's nice to have help. But where there is some sort of limitation or some sort of block that keeps them from asking, and what are those blocks? Are there any tendencies that you see there?

00:22:18 - Hayden Finch
Often people who end up having high-functioning anxiety have been the kind of people who have been successful since birth, right? They were really successful in school and in music or sports or whatever they did. And they've had relatively few experiences where they've really had their back against the wall. And that's not exclusively true. There are definitely people out there with high-functioning anxiety who've struggled, but a lot of them have had a life with a lot of successes. And so this opportunity to practice asking for help or practice being bad at something is just kind of foreign, and it's kind of a skill set to admit that you're bad at something or to tolerate the frustration of learning a new skill. And so this is sometimes something that people are practicing for the first time, really, in adulthood, whereas other people might be practicing it from childhood on.

00:23:11 - Courtney Elmer
That's fascinating. So I'm thinking about my five-year-old right now. He's five years old, and I try to teach him to tie his shoes, or we're playing a new family board game. He's very competitive, like his dad, and tolerates frustration. There is so much wisdom in that. He will just like if he shoots in ladders, right? This is one of the games he enjoys. And so you spin the little thing, and if you land on it, you count the little things, you might get the ladder that goes like all the way up to the top of the board. And I very distinctly remember we're playing this game one time, and I got that number, I landed there, and I went all the way up to the top, and he, like, flipped the court, and he walked out of the room. And I'm like, Where is this coming from? This is normally my happy child. And he was like, I don't want to play anymore. And then he just could not tolerate the frustration, really, of not winning even though the game wasn't even over. He could have very well gotten the same ladder and gone ahead of me. Right. And that happens sometimes too. And so I think about myself growing up as I was a child. I probably had some of those same tendencies, and I was definitely that overperformer who had to always be proving myself. But it was proving myself in the sense that I wanted to earn others' love. I wanted to earn their approval. 

00:24:25 - Courtney Elmer
It wasn't to prove myself because I thought I needed to, but just because I wanted to be loved. And so it's interesting to think about that as we grow up in our childhood and how that actually still informs how we show up as adults today and essentially what we have to unlearn in order to become or step more fully into the fullest expression of who that we're meant to be. And I know that one of the things you talk a lot about is self-acceptance and what a critical aspect this is. And I'm just curious to know, in the society that we live in, we're driven by comparison. We thrive on self-criticism. Look, yesterday I was recording content, and I forgot to plug in my microphone. And I'm like, Courtney, how could you do this? You just recorded eight videos. That was an hour of your time. You couldn't plug in your mic. Now you have to redo it. You're a podcast host. You're a content creator. You're a business. You should know better, right? 

00:25:27 - Courtney Elmer
And how we can be so hard on ourselves. And, of course, I caught myself in the moment and kind of, like, laughed at myself because I literally caught those thoughts going through my head. I can't believe it, how could you do this? But how can we cultivate self-acceptance while, especially as entrepreneurs, we are always striving for constant improvement in our personal and professional lives? Because I know that I value growth, and I always want to be growing. And it's almost like there's a fear that if I'm not growing, then I'm declining, or I'm becoming complacent, or something's wrong with me. And I know a lot of people struggle with this as well. So how can we cultivate this self-acceptance and strike a balance there while also striving for growth and improvement?

00:26:15 - Hayden Finch
Yeah, it's so important, and it's tricky. So often, when I see that kind of behavior in myself or someone else, I'll ask myself some questions. I'll say, like, okay, I'm observing that I had this very critical reaction to a relatively minor mistake. I didn't plug in my microphone. Like, the world has not ended. This is relatively minor. And I noticed that I had a really harsh reaction to that. And so I'll ask myself, why am I holding on to that? What is it doing for me? Right? Because psychologically, we tend to repeat behaviors that are working for us somehow. So how does that help me to do that? 

00:26:50 - Hayden Finch                                                                                                              And then, secondly, what am I afraid of what would happen if I didn't do that, if I didn't respond with that language? And maybe I used some different language, maybe not, like, go extremely the opposite, but just any different language. What am I afraid of would happen? And then, thirdly, what can I learn from that, from the fact that I've been holding on to this and the fact that there is something scary about letting go of it? What is it that I need to learn about myself through that? through that kind of self-inquiry, we uncover that, oh, I have this belief that I need to be punished, or that criticism is motivating, and we can test out that belief, right? Okay, criticism is motivating. How can I test that? Let me just spend a day criticizing myself for every little thing and then compare that to the next day, where I'm really kind to myself for every little thing, and just see how that affects my motivation. I've got a hypothesis there. Let me test it out.

00:27:45 - Courtney Elmer
I love that you hit the nail on the head, too, with just the language piece and also this self-inquiry and becoming aware. Awareness is the foundation of everything. And I know you know this, and our listeners know this. If you're listening right now like you've heard it before, you have to become more aware. You have to become more aware. And so often it's hard to develop and cultivate a true awareness, as if we're almost watching ourselves from the outside looking in, because we are also living our experience at the very same time. And a lot of times, these beliefs and these thoughts are going through our heads completely unconsciously. We're not aware of them because they've been there for so long. And it can be tough to cultivate that awareness. So do you have any first steps or recommendations for people who are like, yeah, I want to become more aware? I would love to know what I'm doing and what my thoughts are doing so that I can change that question and grow through that. But how do I become more aware?

00:28:42 - Hayden Finch
Yeah, I think it can be just as simple as taking five minutes once a week and just saying, was there a time this week when I got in my own way? And just that question, right, just spending five minutes with that question. Was there a time when I got in my own way and just considered that? Or the more vulnerable option, take someone you know and trust and say, hey, what are your observations about me? It's vulnerable. Like, nobody really likes to get that feedback, especially a high-functioning anxiety kind of person. But to be vulnerable enough. And willing enough to get that kind of constructive feedback. That can be really enlightening because the people around us can see our blind spots, and obviously, we can't by definition. And so that can be really enlightening to just say, hey, what have you noticed about me? How do I get in my own way?

00:29:29 - Courtney Elmer
Yes, my husband is really good at that. I don't always love it. I'm like, stop talking. But he's good. And he will call me out, and he'll say that we were exploring the opportunity to maybe buy some additional property and start an airbnb. We have a rental property already. And we're like, do we want to take this on right now? It's really exciting. It sounds fun. We'd love to have a place to go to ourselves. And I love decorating, so I'm like, yes, a whole new house to decorate. This would be great. And so we're talking through the pros and the cons, and he's like, Honestly, Courtney, I don't see us taking this on right now. I worry about our ability to put this on our plate with all the other responsibilities that we have in our jobs, in our family life, and with our son. And he had a really good point because, for me, I'm like, let's just do it. Go after the vision, go out, do the thing right? And he's kind of, like, pumping the brakes a little bit, and I don't always like that, but it was a very critical analysis where he was kind of looking in at me to see you're already complaining because you've got a lot of work on your plate and you're juggling all of these things. 

00:30:32 - Courtney Elmer
Work summer. It's summer right now, and so my son's at home, or then it's camp this week, and then I don't know what's going on, right? And it's just a lot of different things. And he was very honest and kind, but also very firmly, gentle, gently, firm that I don't think this is the path for us at this moment in time. And it was hard to accept that. And then we have our own patterns, right? Husband and wife, I mean, you discover a lot about yourself through each other. Then I was upset, and I was disappointed, and then he wanted to fix that disappointment because he didn't want me to be disappointed. And we've reached that point in our relationship where we were both working to become even more in tune with how we feel and the degree of responsibility that we take for each other's feelings. And so I had to remind him in that moment, I was like, you are not responsible for how I feel right now, and you just need to let me feel disappointed for a little while because that's how I'm feeling.

00:31:34 - Courtney Elmer
So I was kind of that mirror for him, too, where he was trying to reach in and swoop in and fix it. So I think it's really interesting what you bring up there is, yes, asking yourself these questions, but even having the courage to have someone close to you be that mirror for you. And you might not always like what they have to say. Most of the time, you probably won't, but it can probably be very revealing and insightful because they're going to see parts of you that you can't see like you said, your blind spots. So I'm curious then, Hayden, to ask you, and this may be something that you say, yes, it's possible you might tell me, no, this is not possible at all. But I'm just curious to explore this with you because when it comes to high-functioning anxiety, growing a business, and navigating the ups and downs on the journey of entrepreneurship, we talk a lot about antifragility here on the show, growing through what you go through. But on the other side of that coin of antifragility is fragility. We are fragile by nature, and what lies between it is a choice. So I'm just curious, is it possible? And if it is possible, then what strategies do you recommend? Can we harness anxiety as a tool for growth? Is that possible? And if so, then how do we actually do that? Can we use it to our advantage?

00:33:05 - Hayden Finch
Yes. It's interesting because of this antifragility concept because a lot of people with anxiety, or high-functioning anxiety especially, are seen as really tough, right? They're not fragile at all. They are the people that will push through, that will get it done. Nothing is going to stop them. And that can actually become problematic, right? Where they're pushing through to the point that they're working, even when they're sick, et cetera. And so, yeah, I think we can use some anxiety to our advantage because often that sort of like compulsive striving and pushing through is because there's anxiety when we slow down when we're not doing that. And so the anxiety there, if we allow it to exist, it can actually be an indication that we're making healthy choices. Right. There's something about not having to push through and allowing ourselves to be a little bit fragile. It's going to be anxiety inducing, sure, but it can be an indication that I'm making choices that are healthy for me right now. And even though it doesn't seem like it on the surface, this might actually be healthy for my business, too. Like, pushing through is not always the answer to growing my business.

00:34:19 - Courtney Elmer
Yeah, wow. This brings up a lot for me because having gone through anorexia at a young age, I also was diagnosed with OCD clinical depression. And then fast forward five years later, a cancer diagnosis and what that did for my mental health, just the depression that followed that, and then a traumatic birth experience five years after that with my son and postpartum depression. So there were lots of moments in my journey where I felt very fragile, and I know what it's like to feel fragile. And from the outside looking in, someone might look at me and say, well, you're the definition of antifragility. You've grown through all of that. You've walked through all of that. And yes, I have too. And that's why I think these things coexist. It's not as much of a spectrum as it is two sides of a coin, like I mentioned a moment ago, because there are moments where we're going to feel fragile, and there are moments where we can choose to grow through that. But sometimes, it's not going to be immediate. You're not going to be able to just flip the coin around or flip a switch and be like, okay, now I'm antifragile. 

00:35:24 - Courtney Elmer
I'm growing through this right now, where we have to sit in our moments of fragility to understand what it means to be antifragile. We have to sit with the anxiety to be able to appreciate what it feels like to not have that. And it's the same thing when we go through difficult moments in our life. It helps us become so grateful for the good times. And I think it functions much the same way. The experts out there in antifragility might disagree with me, but that's how I feel like it functions, especially as it relates to our personal lives, our personal growth, and our businesses, especially because entrepreneurship, it's unpredictable. We have so many ups and downs, and we have to navigate those failures. We have to navigate those setbacks. So I know you've done a lot of writing on behavior change, and procrastination habits. Aside from what you've already shared with us, which has been so valuable, are there any other specific practices that you might recommend to someone listening right now who's in a dark season in their business where they don't see the light at the end of the tunnel? They are hoping that it's there. They're choosing to believe that it's there, but they don't see it. It's a really hard moment in their life journey. How can they stay resilient in these dark times in the face of adversity? What specifically can they do to hold on to that hope and that faith that they will get through this?

00:37:00 - Hayden Finch
Yeah, I think it's gosh. Yeah. There are those moments when you're just hopeless, and it feels like you're up against just an unsolvable problem. And one thing that can really help in those moments is to sit down and literally make a list of the resources you have. Maybe you have a little bit of money, maybe you don't. Maybe you have some time, maybe you have some people. Maybe you have that sort of, like, I'm going to push through kind of resilience. Whatever you have, right? Whatever your resources are, just write them down. Because it's very easy when we're up against a problem that seems really big to forget that we have any resources. But when you can hold on to that, you can start to see, oh, I could use that little bit of time I have to maybe take care of myself, and if I felt better internally, then maybe I would see a different solution to this problem, et cetera. But make a list of your resources, and don't be afraid to give it some time. For people with high-functioning anxiety, it seems like everything is urgent, and it's okay to just say, wait, what if I just take a week, right, and just come back to this problem later? We all know that there have been problems that we've just set aside for a minute and then had a spontaneous sort of thought that just kind of solves the problem. So not everything is urgent, and I've got resources at my disposal.

00:38:22 - Courtney Elmer
I think that it is powerful to remind ourselves of that because I know that, in my experience as a mom, a wife, and a business owner, sometimes it feels very lonely. And it's not because I don't have people around me who love me and who support me and who surround me, but it's because I am the only one who is experiencing those thoughts and feelings to the degree that I'm experiencing them internally. And no one can truly know what that is like, even if they've had a parallel experience before. It's not identical. And so those moments can feel isolating. And so we can often tend to think we're on our own when really there are resources that we have at our disposal, and that's so important to remember. So thank you for that. And Hayden, I know you've got a couple of books as well. And I'd love, in the time that we have left, for you to dive into a little bit about what those are about and how they can help us, specifically when it comes to changing behavior, changing our habits, overcoming procrastination, and even working with and through the high-functioning anxiety that we might have, especially as entrepreneurs and business owners, right?

00:39:29 - Hayden Finch
Yeah. So my first book was The Psychology of Procrastination. So in that book, I kind of walk you through the evidence to describe why we procrastinate even though we know better and what are some evidence-based strategies to try to overcome that. And the thesis of the book is that the reason we continue to struggle is because this is not a problem with time management, right? Often we take time management solutions; we get a planner and all that sort of stuff. But that doesn't help because, in my mind, the thesis of the book is that this is a problem with emotions, right? I get anxious about something, so I put it off. Or I am sort of worried about whether I'm going to be successful with something, so I put it off. So that book kind of walks through that emotion management thesis and then my second book is a guided journal on habits. And so there's a little bit of education in there about strategies for setting habits and breaking bad habits. And then most of the pages are sort of a guided journal where you can choose some habits that you want to set and then monitor your way through that because we know that monitoring is a critical way of ensuring success with things. But for the high-functioning anxiety folks, I've actually got some specific thoughts for them that aren't included in those books because those books are obviously written for the general population. So, yeah, I've got sort of my own thoughts that I share with every client who comes into my office. I have individualized opinions about what's going on for them and what they need. Some of those techniques will be applicable to the high-functioning anxiety folks, and there are probably some extra secrets, too.

00:41:09 - Courtney Elmer
Awesome. And so, where can people connect with you? Where can they get a copy of your book? Where can they go online to learn more from you?

00:41:14 - Hayden Finch
Yeah, the books are available anywhere. Amazon, anywhere. You buy books, you can look those up, you can search by my name, and those books will come up, and everything else about me is HaydenFinch.com there. You can find links to those books online. You can read more about my thoughts on mental health, and you can contact me, work with me. All of that information is HaydenFinch.com awesome.

00:41:34 - Courtney Elmer
Hayden, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. I know those listening today, I'm sure, got some very valuable nuggets out of what you shared. It's helping me think differently about how I show up in my business, and I'm sure it's doing the same for those who are listening in today. So thank you for being here with us.

00:41:51 - Hayden Finch
Yeah, no, I really enjoyed this conversation. Yeah, you ask such thoughtful questions. So, yeah, this was fun. I appreciate it.

00:41:57 - Courtney Elmer
And thank you so much for taking the time to join us for another episode of  AntiFragile Entrepreneurship™. If you want to connect with Dr. Finch, make sure you head to the show notes so that you can connect with her online. Reach out to see if she can help you uncover the root causes of your high-functioning anxiety so that you can break free and finally experience a greater quality of life, a richer quality of life, and step into the fullest expression of who you're meant to be. And if this episode was helpful for you, chances are you know someone who would also be helpful. And if someone came to mind as you were listening to this episode, I strongly encourage you to share this episode with them. Hit the share button, and send it to them in a text. Let them know you were thinking of them, and let them know that you thought this would be a great resource for them. 

00:42:56 - Courtney Elmer
And if this episode was valuable for you personally, then it would mean a lot if you scroll down in your Apple app right now, tap the five stars, and write us a short review. Even just one sentence not only helps me and my team be able to continue providing you with the kind of content you want to hear, but it also helps potential listeners who are looking for valuable podcasts to listen to know that this show is worth their time. So it'd mean the world if you take a moment to leave a review. Then coming up next week, join me right back here because we have a powerful episode in store for you. We're going behind the scenes for an up close and personal look at the inspiring journey of an entrepreneur who rose from the depths of despair to triumph over addiction. Bounced back from the loss of not one, but two. Seven-figure businesses and has gone on to become a voice for change in the world, particularly as it relates to entrepreneurship and the addictions that we face. But spoiler alert, we're not just talking about alcohol addiction, substance addiction, or addiction to your phone or social media. We're going deeper than that. And we are talking about the number one addiction that all entrepreneurs face, that you need to get a handle on if you want to grow your business and find fulfillment in your work. That's all coming up next week. Until then, let's go out there and grow through what we go through together.